Re-cladding

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peterstreet1599
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by peterstreet1599 » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:06 pm

Thank you, we are in agreement with your strategy, and pleased you are there, each should be allowed to express his/her own opinion. We do not expect everyone to share ours. But we must correct misinformation when we see it and shall continue to do so.
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by Waltonwatcher » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:14 pm

Peter,

Glad you agree that it is for a tribunal to decide. From an outsider I don't think many of the residents understand how a tribunal works and what things they have to take into account when they make their decisions. Like all things when you present projects like this to the tribunal they will want to see the facts. What solutions were considered and what costs did these come in at? I suspect the tribunal will want to know what initial quotes the surveyors were offered for rain screen cladding(RSC) and what has been done to reduce these costs. Then why the render decision was taken. They will also want to see at least 2 different quotes for the work to show the best price was obtained. More would probably be ideal.

People just want facts. What would this project cost for render? What is the likely cost for RSC? The average resident will not be savvy to all the technical details involved here. They just want to know they are getting the right solution for the flats at the best price. I think everyone in Walton really wants this project to start sooner than later. No one wants to see Walton residents argue on a forum.

The reason you have a board of directors on projects like this is so the right decisions can be made for the residents. This is the reason that they were voted to be directors in first place. There should be a trust for the directors to make the right decisions for the residents. If the board have asked for quotes on render then it seems unlikely a rain screen project would go ahead. At present it seems unlikely you will convince the board that RSC is better. Also that the tribunal would even accept it.

If the board picked a project which was 10-20k more expensive than the cheapest option I would want to know why and if the board have my best interest at heart. Hopefully when you all have your meeting the specialists there will be able to present the facts and explain any decisions they have reached.
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by JonFromWellington » Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:32 am

For the debate on what cladding to use, weve had this discussion in meetings many times.

If we all agreed to erect a statue of David Cameron in the gardens of Wellington Close, because were not freehold, we would have to go to a tribunal, & they would rule on what our leases would say, & that would be that it is not affordable essential maintenance, & we therefore could not do it.

Its exactly the same with rainscreen v render -even if we wanted to pay the hundreds of thousands more for rainscreen, the tribunal would say "you have to go for the affordable, essential maintenance option" & that would be that.

Why did this issue not arise when we got the quotes for rainscreen last summer? Thats because neither the consultant nor the surveyor told us that there was a more affordable alternative to rainscreen :roll:

The consultant has now gone but the surveyor is still there - & that worries me given the above. I know the board & the leaseholders wanted the larger London surveyor but we chose the smaller one because of the consultant, who now has said he made a mistake. & does a small surveyor have the clout to get bigger contractors to quote? The results so far dont encourage me.
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by Waltonwatcher » Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:06 am

It seems to me the reason nothing is happening here is because of a lot of poor decisions over the years and a split of residents that want different things. This should of really been avoided.

Did the consultant involved here really only suggest Rainscreen cladding? This is hardly acting on the best interest of the residents if there are cheaper alternatives. The residents should always have been offered all solutions even if you think one of them is a more superior one. Just like you should always have at least 2-3 different quotes for the work. You never just get a quote from one contractor. I would not be using that consultant again if this is the case.

Did no one tell residents this would have to go through a tribunal to be approved? It just seems to me everyone has been blindly walking through the process and taking on very bad advice and making poor decisions too.

On a recent project 4-5 years ago that took place on my flats we got 2-3 quotes each offering prices for different possible solutions. The quote was then taken from the cheapest/approved contractor on the most affordable option. Okay this wasn't for millions but it was costing residents thousands each.

The point is if you only ask for quotes on one solution you will only get the quote on one solution. The brief for the builders should of been done in a way where they could offer prices for different solutions. (E.g. Rain screen cladding or render. Are there other options?) This would stop a lot of the division which clearly exists here. Instead there appears to be two parties arguing over the different approaches rather than trying to actually work on behalf of the residents to get the best possible prices for both approaches.

My solution: Get quotes for both solutions from contractors and make the briefs as least restrictive as possible so as many contractors as possible can bid for the work. Then as residents agree to let the directors allow the surveyor to do their job without interfering in the process. When you get the prices and different options then let the residents decide. Of course if one option is much cheaper than this would make the choice easier. You still have to get past the tribunal hearing. At least you could then compare like for like quotes.

Hopefully you will soon get quotes from the builders and the work can begin.
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by peterstreet1599 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:15 am

Jon

Adair are a fairly big firm with good resources, however, I have been shocked and bitterly disappointed by the way they have performed.

Insulated render has never been specified, nor considered, because it is not a suitable product for Wellington Close.

We don't know what the tribunal will decide, but we have to make a case for whichever scheme we propose.

We can make a good case for rainscreen. Since 2009 rainscreen has been the only product ever considered, everybody has always supported it, the Section 20 notices specify rainscreen.

This changed after the high costs came in on 30th June 2014 and the surveyors and their contractor started looking for cheaper alternatives, which is understandable.

However, the savings due to insulated render have been grossly exaggerated. A saving of 20K per flat has just been mentioned on this forum. This amounts to a total saving of over TWO AND A HALF MILLION POUNDS. Think about it.

It is a false economy to use cheap materials and I believe the tribunal would understand and agree with that argument.

Rainscreen cladding can still be obtained at a reasonable cost with a different method of procurement.
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by Waltonwatcher » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:55 am

How can you not specify or consider Render?? A consultant should be there to advice not decide the decision for the residents before they have even been given a choice. It does not appear they were even offered a choice here. Someone should have questioned this very early on.

What evidence do you have render does not work? Appearance alone is not enough. Fact that the material is cheaper is not a factor as long as the method is tried and tested and has been used on other projects. Why should Wellington close specifically not be suitable? You don't cover a wall in gold if Silver is just as good enough to do the job. From what I have read here RSC has only ever been supported as no other options were offered to the resident. Hardly a great argument to support it.

I have no idea how you expect to procure the materials cheaper. One would have thought this is something the contractors do? If you buy the materials for them and they are the wrong parts they will not give you your money back. Why would the contractors pay over the odds for the materials if they were cheaper elsewhere? If they want the work they will submit a competitive tender. You need to explain this point better.

I am not saying RSC isn't a decent solution but ruling out all other options is not the job of the board or the consultant to do until they have all the facts. The tribunal would also question why more expensive solutions have been used if cheaper options were available. At present you will struggle to tell them if solution A is cheaper than solution B as you have no like for like quotes on each method. Comparing 2010 quotes to 2014 quotes is meaningless.

Remember this is a maintenance project. The board, surveyors and consultant are not there to pick solutions that upgrade the building. They are there to maintain it and consider the best interest for all residents not what they may personally think is better.

I really do feel sorry for this residents here as it appears they have been badly messed around here leaving them in cold and damp flats.
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by NoOne » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:26 pm

Has anyone considered at what point the existing flats becomes worthless due to the whole debacle with the "project" and the deterioration of the flats as they currently stand. Surely if someone tried to sell now then any mortgage company would just refuse the potential purchaser a mortgage. Really who is gonna lend on a wellington close flat as the situation stands.

Have there been any valuations done recently by any surveyors either for mortgage purposes or for any other reason. What is the official "value" of the flats as they stand?
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by Taipan71 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:35 pm

One has just sold for around £200000 and a spur block has just gone on the market for 210000
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by San Juan » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:57 pm

Why is it that if anyone does not agree with Peter Street he either accuses them of hiding the truth or being part of a dirty tricks campaign?

I posted £50K++ and £70 K as being possible figures for render and rain shield cladding.

Where did they come from?

Letter from GCS 19 /01/2015 stating figure for cladding of £67K - hence my 70+

Letter from GCS 11/02/2015 stating change to render plus grants would reduce figure by £12K at least - hence my 50+ ( I need to be an optimist)

I think we all agree Peter that cladding is the best, and I think we all agree that render should be cheaper.

Tomorrow evening many people will be busy massaging their egos and point scoring. Please have a thought for those of us that actually have to front up the money.

We have known for a long time that we need windows, we have even budgeted for this. £40K was a figure that appeared possible until last year, increase that to £50K and I am in trouble as I suspect are many others.

Sorry no conspiracy theories here, just one of the normally silent majority, who doesn't want to stand up and discuss in a large public forum, we can't all be Winston Churchill.

Fingers tightly crossed for tomorrow and thank you Wellington Close forum for the opportunity to voice an opinion
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by Waltonwatcher » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:33 pm

I actually think this forum is bad for the residents. I suspect the contractors will be reading all these comments. If they have expect this to negatively impact any prices you are offered.

Worst case scenario if you don't get the quotes you expect tomorow:
Expect fireworks at the meeting tomorrow with the two opposing groups. With lots of denials over past events. With a likely EGM to follow to either sack the board or for the board to sack the members who are at odds with them. (Power struggle.) Then the whole process would likely have to be restarted. This time hiring an architect, specialist consultant with no links to the residents, a large surveyor capable of running a project this size. Tenders to firms outside of those already approached.

The fact is as residents at some point you have to all stop trying to influence events unless you truly know how to best take this project forward. So far I don't think any of the residents truly have the skills to decide technical decisions or know how things like the tribunals work. This is why you hire professionals. So for this reason professional bodies should be relied on and every process should be done by the book. Unfortunately it will cost residents several thousand more restarting all of this.

So far it would seem a lot of bad advice has been taken on here and the meeting tomorrow will unravel this mystery whatever happens.

Oh I would also be asking administrator to delete all these cladding threads as these could negatively impact any quoutes you get. Well they probably already have.

Good luck for your meeting tomorrow.
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by sewell01 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:38 am

Waltonwatcher wrote:Oh I would also be asking administrator to delete all these cladding threads as these could negatively impact any quoutes you get. Well they probably already have.
We are not looking to delete any threads unless BOTH parties request it.
As I said previously, we are allowing both sides to discuss this, and the Org is totally impartial to your stances.
If both sides agree it's in best interests to remove this from the public domain (bearing in mind cached copies will still exist) then we'll happily oblige.
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by JonFromWellington » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:33 am

- Anyone that says that 3 tower blocks in southern England can be reclad on the cheap is lying to you & unfortunately too many of us have believed those claims in the past

- I do think this thread should be deleted. The contractors for certain will have read it & some of the negative comments by certain people & use that as an excuse to increase their price due to the level of risk

- I go back to my very 1st post - the leaseholders need to show more scrutiny in who they elect to the board. I only recently found out that the consultant who pushed for the surveyor we never actually wanted in the first place was also a board member. The board otherwise would have gone for a different surveyor
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by San Juan » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:58 pm

walton watcher / jon

Good point about the thread being deleted and tend to agree.

It's confusing that the residents were asked to vote for a surveyor, basically based on how good their presentations were. You are right we don't have the knowledge. Having given us that choice the consultant then convinced the board to employ the other one.

Lets see if his decision was the right one!!! I hope it was.

No doubt more thoughts from many in the morning !!!!!
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by Waltonwatcher » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:42 pm

So how did the meeting go??? What did the Surveyors have to say? Did you finally get an affordable quote? I think the whole of Walton wants to see an end to this saga. This could be your big chance to get this project started.
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Re: Re-cladding

Post by peterstreet1599 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:12 pm

Monday night was shocking, but we have to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and start all over again.

After the debacle of last night's meeting where the very high prices were received, the project at these levels is unaffordable.

Despite all previous denials by the board and the managing agents, we do now find we need a lease variation after all, which we expect to take up to 6 months, from the time all the signatures on the forms are received.

During that time we have to take the opportunity to crack on with the project, get estimates in, and be ready to go as soon as the lease variation is approved.

The leaseholders have to be active in this campaign to ensure that we make it happen.

We need to keep up the pressure on the new surveyor and the board to deliver.

Everybody must sign their lease variation form without delay.

We cannot stress enough the importance of this.

I have the one quote at an affordable price, which I told everyone about last night, and I am in dialogue with the board and the managing agents regarding the re-tendering process.
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